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Old November 6th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Stev Stev is offline
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Default VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Having read the rather sparse documentation I think I understand the Netgear VLANs.

So...I am trying to segment my PC LAN from my streaming Audio LAN, but need the Media PC and NAS to be seen from both LANs.

The GS724T is set up as follows (all ports untagged)

VLAN1 default = G1(ADSL), G2(GS116 switch), G5(PC), G12(Media PC), G14(ReadyNAS)
PVID 1 = G1 to G11

VLAN2 PC LAN = G1, G2, G5, G12, G14, G15(ZP90) to G21(ZP90).
PVID 2 = G12, G14

VLAN3 Audio = G1, G12, G14, G15 to G21.
PVID 3 = G15 to G21

Now,
Any PC not in PVID1 cannot see the GS724T webpage. tested and found to be true.
In theory any port in PVID 1 can talk to any port in VLAN1.
And In theory any port in PVID 2 can talk to any port in VLAN2.
Also In theory any port in PVID 3 can talk to any port in VLAN3.

But in practice...
The ZP90s in PVID3 cannot 'see' the ADSL on port G1 - or at least the return traffic does not get to the

ZP90s. Adding the G15-G21 ports to VLAN1 cures this.

But this does not help with the second problem which is the Audio stream packets are Multicast and hit every port on VLAN2.
Removing the PCs from VLAN 2 means that the PCs cannot see the NAS or the Media PC (which also controls the ZP90s).
Leaving the PCs in VLAN2 and moving G12 & G14 to PVID3 has the same effect even though G12 & G14 are still in VLAN2 and VLAN1. But this stops the propagation of the Multicast packets.

What am I missing ?
Any suggestions ?
.
thanks
Steve
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  #2  
Old November 8th, 2009, 11:55 PM
raru raru is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

To clarify, a port's PVID is the VLAN ID that will be set on any untagged frame coming into the port. Once a frame is tagged, it can only reach a port that is a member of that VLAN ID.

You are trying to implement intersecting 802.1Q VLAN's without anything to trunk them, which isn't going to work since you want since you do want everything reachable but not in the same broadcast domain. You can't have it both ways. Without a trunk you could do port-based VLAN's however that isn't going to solve your problem either, because if the audio PC is a member of multiple VLAN's they will still all receive the multicast traffic since they are all in the same broadcast domain.

The best solution for your problem would probably be IGMP snooping, which would allow the switch to send the multicast traffic only to the hosts/ports that requested it instead of flooding the broadcast domain. Unfortunately the GS724T does not support IGMP snooping as far as I know. (GS108T, GS724AT, GS748T, etc do though)

Another solution would be to use a router to route between the audio network and the other network (separate subnets), which would contain your multicast traffic while still allowing the LAN access via the router. This could be done with or without VLAN's depending on the router, etc.
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  #3  
Old November 9th, 2009, 09:33 AM
Stev Stev is offline
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Angry Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Hi
There is an option on the GS724T for IGMP Snooping but I'll have to read up on how to set it up - unless someone has a quick guide ?.

The VLANs seem to be un-reilable - over the weekend only the Media PC (PVID2) could see the NAS (PVID3) Multicast traffic was limited to VLAN3 ports. None of the other PCs (PVID1) could see the NAS. The NAS is in VLAN 1,2 & 3.

Today most PCs (on GS108 switch PVID1) could see the NAS, but one PC directly connected to GS724T (PVID1) in particular could see the NAS and other PCs but could not be seen by the other PCs !!!!

This is not funny
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  #4  
Old November 9th, 2009, 09:43 AM
Stev Stev is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Just to clarify setup is now

The GS724T is set up as follows (all ports untagged)

VLAN1 default = G1(ADSL), G2(GS116 switch), G5(PC), G12(Media PC), G14(ReadyNAS),
PVID 1 = G1 to G11

VLAN2 PC LAN = G1, G2, G5, G12, G15(ZP90) to G21(ZP90)
PVID 2 = G12

VLAN3 Audio = G14, G15 to G21.
PVID 3 = G14, G15 to G21, G22 (2nd port on ADSL)

regards
Steve
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  #5  
Old November 9th, 2009, 12:45 PM
raru raru is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stev View Post
Hi
There is an option on the GS724T for IGMP Snooping but I'll have to read up on how to set it up - unless someone has a quick guide ?.
The GS724T spec sheet doesn't mention IGMP snooping, go figure. I can't get to any GS724T's that I administer right now to check, but it should just be a matter of enabling it IGMP snooping. You may also be able to manually define multicast groups if it supports that, but start by just enabling snooping.

Quote:
The VLANs seem to be un-reilable - over the weekend only the Media PC (PVID2) could see the NAS (PVID3) Multicast traffic was limited to VLAN3 ports. None of the other PCs (PVID1) could see the NAS. The NAS is in VLAN 1,2 & 3.

Today most PCs (on GS108 switch PVID1) could see the NAS, but one PC directly connected to GS724T (PVID1) in particular could see the NAS and other PCs but could not be seen by the other PCs !!!!
When you say one PC could not "see" another, do you mean unable to ping each other? If you're talking about some high-level test, then don't waste your time.

In any case your overlapping VLAN config is an unnecessarily complex approach to the multicast problem. If you have no other reason for those VLAN's than restricting multicast traffic then I suggest you remove all those VLAN's (put everything back in VLAN 1, PVID 1) and look at IGMP snooping/multicast groups.
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  #6  
Old November 10th, 2009, 03:17 AM
Stev Stev is offline
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Thumbs down Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Hi,

Yes the main purpose of the VLANs is to contain the Audio streaming traffic which is Multicast with an amount of Broadcast throw in for good measure.

The Media PC controls the Sonos devices, but also records TV programs and is the home for the Picture and Music librarys. All of which is backed up to the NAS. The Sonos devices are happy to retrieve the Music from the NAS but still need to 'see' the Media PC.

I use two other PCs to retrieve the files from the Media PC and play locally so they need to have folder access on the Media PC. I would liked to have backed up other PCs to the NAS - but am putting up with backing up to Media PC and then copying from the Media PC to the NAS.

A link to help files elsewhere in this forum gives an example of overlapping VLANs on the GS724 so (in theory) its not difficult.
Except for today (Tues) - with no config changes - none of the PCs can 'see' (or ping) the Media PC and they can see the NAS. And the Media PC cannot get to the internet. But all the SONOS devices can stream audio from the internet!! And they are all in VLAN3 with PVID3 !!!
Is it me or is the switch un-reliable ?

regards
Steve
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  #7  
Old November 10th, 2009, 11:16 AM
raru raru is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stev View Post
A link to help files elsewhere in this forum gives an example of overlapping VLANs on the GS724 so (in theory) its not difficult.
Can you give us a link? I'm betting it's not the same scenario.

Quote:
Except for today (Tues) - with no config changes - none of the PCs can 'see' (or ping) the Media PC and they can see the NAS. And the Media PC cannot get to the internet. But all the SONOS devices can stream audio from the internet!! And they are all in VLAN3 with PVID3 !!!
Before you said the media PC has PVID =2.
Quote:
Is it me or is the switch un-reliable ?
I'm not sure what is causing your issue... perhaps a mac table problem related to your overlapping VLAN's with different PVID's? Anyway, I wouldn't waste time trying to solve problems related to such a convoluted and unnatural configuration. As I said before I would scrap it and look at IGMP snooping/multicast groups instead.
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Old November 13th, 2009, 09:15 AM
Stev Stev is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Hi

>>Can you give us a link? I'm betting it's not the same scenario.
http://kb.netgear.com/ci/fattach/get...727/redirect/1
Has 3 overlapping VLANs
VLAN20: Ports 0/5 and 0/6 and 0/9 (PVID 20 for all the ports)
VLAN30: Ports 0/7 and 0/8 and 0/9 (PVID 30 for all the ports)
VLAN40: Port 0/5 0/9 (PVID 40 only for port 0/9)
So very much like i am doing.


>>Before you said the media PC has PVID =2.I'm not sure what is causing your issue... perhaps a mac table problem related to your overlapping VLAN's with different PVID's?
Nope - Media PC still in Pvid2, NAs and Sonos in Pvid3 all in VLAN 2 & 3.
Have now deleted the MAC table in the GS724 before restarting everything.

>>Anyway, I wouldn't waste time trying to solve problems related to such a convoluted and unnatural configuration.
Whats unnatural about overlapping VLANs ? - it quite common - it works perfectly on a Cisco switch I borrowed from the office - I just do not want to spend 2k+ on a switch which uses 8x the power and has noisy fans.

>>As I said before I would scrap it and look at IGMP snooping/multicast groups instead.
I do not think that IGMP snooping will stop the Audio streaming from hammering the PCs given that it is both Multicast and Broadcast. Why do you think this is easier than VLANs ? Will the switch actualy be able to cope with nine different devices that are involved in the audio streaming.


Having said all that - the remainder of this week the switch has worked as expected after I shut down everything and rebooted in the order of GS724, GS116, NAS, XP based PCs, Vista based PC, Win7 based PC, SONOS devices.
And gave it a few hours to argue amongst themselves before logging into any device.
Seems to have worked - but god help me when PCs have to be rebooted.

Steve
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  #9  
Old November 14th, 2009, 08:25 PM
raru raru is offline
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Default Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stev View Post
>>Can you give us a link? I'm betting it's not the same scenario.
http://kb.netgear.com/ci/fattach/get...727/redirect/1
Has 3 overlapping VLANs
VLAN20: Ports 0/5 and 0/6 and 0/9 (PVID 20 for all the ports)
VLAN30: Ports 0/7 and 0/8 and 0/9 (PVID 30 for all the ports)
VLAN40: Port 0/5 0/9 (PVID 40 only for port 0/9)
So very much like i am doing.
That document basically describes a method for emulating port-based VLAN's with one overlapping port using 802.1Q VLAN's. The configuration is more complex than port-based, yet the result is farily straightforward because it behaves exactly the same as a port-based VLAN. The only reason to use such a configuration is if your switch only supports 1Q VLAN's and you want a port-based VLAN.

Your configuration is even more complex than what's in the document because you have multiple ports accessible from both VLAN's and a router physically connected to both VLAN's on different ports, and you're using the same subnet across the whole thing.

Note that the document says: "To allow traffic between VLAN's a device working at protocol level (Layer 3) is required". In the context of their example that is what you're trying to do, only without a L3 or 1Q VLAN device.
Quote:
>>Anyway, I wouldn't waste time trying to solve problems related to such a convoluted and unnatural configuration.
Whats unnatural about overlapping VLANs ? - it quite common - it works perfectly on a Cisco switch I borrowed from the office - I just do not want to spend 2k+ on a switch which uses 8x the power and has noisy fans.
For 2k you could get an L3 switch (several of them, in fact) which would be dead simple to configure a separate Audio VLAN/subnet. That would be an ideal solution to your problem. So would adding a 1Q router.

I did not say that overlapping VLAN's are unnatural. However, what you have done with them is unnatural and uncommon for the reasons I listed above.

Quote:
I do not think that IGMP snooping will stop the Audio streaming from hammering the PCs given that it is both Multicast and Broadcast. Why do you think this is easier than VLANs ?
You're right, IGMP will do nothing for broadcast. I thought multicast was your real problem. You only said "with an amount of Broadcast throw in for good measure". I did not interpret "an amount thrown in" to be anything significant. It would help to be more descriptive.

As for why I think IGMP snooping is easier... that's because it's a binary configuration option. It couldn't be any easier unless it turned itself on. If it doesn't do what you need (restrict broadcast), that's a another story.

Quote:
Will the switch actualy be able to cope with nine different devices that are involved in the audio streaming.
I don't see why not.

Quote:
Having said all that - the remainder of this week the switch has worked as expected after I shut down everything and rebooted in the order of GS724, GS116, NAS, XP based PCs, Vista based PC, Win7 based PC, SONOS devices.
And gave it a few hours to argue amongst themselves before logging into any device.
Seems to have worked - but god help me when PCs have to be rebooted.
Hrm... I don't tolerate arguing devices on my networks, nor do I like problems that come and go (node A can see node B today, can't tomorrow, etc). But If this is working for you at the moment, then that's good... I guess.
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  #10  
Old November 19th, 2009, 02:40 AM
Stev Stev is offline
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Smile Re: VLANs on GS724Tv3 switch

Hi,

Well it has been working without problems since it all settled down.
One of the problems seemed to have been the time taken for the MAC address table (within the 724) to resolve itself. Deleting it before restarting everything cured that - so thanks for that tip.

The other problems are that Vista and Win7 seems to argue with each other over network 'ownership' or 'who is the boss PC' even though no such thing is apparently setup. Most common issue is that one or another system will decide it does not recognise the network and reverts to 'Public' and No Sharing. Not what you want when setting up VLANs.
Moral there is change one thing at a time and wait for at least an hour between changes.

The XP PCs are the victims of the Vista/Win7 issues as the Shared folders come and go according to the Vista/Win7 vagarities.

On the plus side - was logged into office using VPN and downloading heavy files, whilst listening to music streaming from NAS, else where wife was listening to her music streaming from NAS, and the family were watching a movie streaming from Media PC with 5:1 audio streamed from Media PC to HTA via Sonos. No stuttering anywhere.
So I guess it works (eventually).

Steve
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