#11  
Old February 21st, 2012, 03:24 PM
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Quote:
Originally Posted by z3540 View Post
When I use inSSIDer, I see my 2.4 GHz network with a [I]theoretical[I] max of 216 Mbps, not the 450 Mbps that is advertised. It correctly lists my 5 GHz network as 450 Mbps. When I check my setup via Genie (Advanced>Wireless Setup>Wireless Network (2.4GHz b/g/n)), I have set:
Channel = Auto
Mode = Up to 450 Mbps

Is there a setting that I am not configuring correctly?
I am using Intel WiFi Link 5300 AGN with 3 antennas and a foot away from the router it was never able to connect at 450 Mbps or close on 2.4Ghz.
I have close to 400Mbps on 5Ghz band.
That was when I downloaded and used inSSIDer to see what was going on.
Sadly it is the way my wndr4500 works too. In GUI of the router it shows
that 2.4Ghz is set to 450 Mbps. But inSSIDer shows 216 and no channel bonding.
Now I would restart the router while monitoring the inSSIDer and as router
comes back it would bond channels and show 450 Mbps as it should, but only for a short time. Shortly after the reboot it stops bonding channels and reports 216 Mbps to inSSIDer.
In GUI of the router itself there is no change, it keeps showing that 2.4 radio is selected for 450 Mbps.
So now I know that invisible settings in the router are fluctuating. I just hope it is addressed in the upcoming firmware.
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  #12  
Old February 22nd, 2012, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

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Originally Posted by abbello View Post
At first I thought that there was a "good neighbor" policity activated on my 4500, but then even if change to 450mbps it still uses one channel (@216).
The implementation of the Good Neighbour policy is such that you cannot override it by setting the rate to 450Mbps (does it say ‘up to’ by the way?). If it was possible to override that setting then you would see two channels in use. You may well then see a link rate of 450Mbps but your actual throughput could be seriously hammered, and that of your neighbours, as you all contend for air time (look up CSMA/CA). A network operating at 40MHz bandwidth will cover most of the 2.4GHz band channels and be forced to share air time with all networks and devices operating on those channels, you could be increasing contention dramatically and that 450Mbps link rate will mean nothing in that case.
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  #13  
Old February 24th, 2012, 04:39 PM
z3540 z3540 is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Thanks for all the replies.

abbello, just saw your post at another thread on the same issue. I searched but could not find an answer so I created this tread. Please keep us informed of what Netgear says about a possible solution.

Chuck_s, I realize that it is a theoretical max as I mentioned in my original post. Real world speeds are much less (< half?). I think the point that abbello and I are making is that inSSIDer is reporting something less than what the router advertisement says is its' theoretical max. So, am I not getting the maximum from this router @ 2.4GHz because of the router, adapter, or is it a problem (bug) with in SSIDer? With my old WNDR3700v1, inSSIDer correctly reported that it was bonding 2 channels and the max theoretical rate was 300Mbps @ 2.4GHz. This does not happen with the 4500 with firmware V1.0.0.70_1.0.18. Does yours report 2 channel bonding when inSSIDer reports 450Mbps @2.4GHz? Why can't I bond 2 channels with the 4500 but can bond 2 channels with the 3700?

StratmanX, I do use Windows Wireless Network Connection Status to look at the transfer rates between the router and my NIC. @ 2.4GHz, I range from 80-144Mbps and @ 5GHz I range 160-300Mbps. Distance is about 25 feet going in a straight line with a floor and 2 walls in between the router and laptop. My NIC is an Intel Wireless Wifi Link 4965. I believe it is a mini 2x3 card. It can bond 2 channels with my old WNDR3700v1 but inSSIDer says it is not bonding with the 4500. Do I need a 3x3 card to bond 2 channels with the 4500? I went into the NIC's properties and made sure the settings (Wireless Mode, Transmit Power, Roaming Aggressiveness, Mixed Mode Protection, Fat Channel Intolerant, etc) were configured properly. I'm also running the latest firmware for the NIC. Should I upgrade my NIC to the Intel Ultimate 6300 (3x3)?

So the questions remain: Is inSSIDer reporting the wrong status of channel bonding and theoretical max because of a bug in the software, is the theoretical max @ 2.4GHz NOT 450Mbps, is there a problem with my NIC or the 4500?
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  #14  
Old February 24th, 2012, 06:43 PM
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Quote:
Originally Posted by z3540 View Post
I think the point that abbello and I are making is that inSSIDer is reporting something less than what the router advertisement says is its' theoretical max.
Correct. This is why it's defined as "theoretical". There is nothing wrong here.

Quote:
So, am I not getting the maximum from this router @ 2.4GHz because of the router, adapter, or is it a problem (bug) with in SSIDer?
Yes, but you need to remove inSSIDer from your equation. You are hung up over inSSIDer. I guarantee you will feel better once you rid yourself of this dependency.

Quote:
With my old WNDR3700v1, inSSIDer correctly reported that it was bonding 2 channels and the max theoretical rate was 300Mbps @ 2.4GHz. This does not happen with the 4500 with firmware V1.0.0.70_1.0.18.
The 3700 is a 2 antenna, 2 radio per channel wireless router. One channel (20 MHz non-bonded) + one antenna/radio = 150 Mpbs (theoretical max); two channel (40 Mhz bonding) + 2 antenna/radio = 300 Mbps (theoretical max). These are the simplified relationships for the 3700.

With the 4500, there is a third antenna and third radio. Single channel (20 MHz Non-bonded) gives a maximum of "Up To 217 Mbps" on the 2.4 GHz band. Two channel (40 MHz bonded) + 3 antenna/radio = 450 Mbps (theoretical max).

What your actual throughput is depends on many factors including the router antenna/radio/parts/manufacture/mathematical algorithms/firmware, client NIC adapter card, distance between router and client, interference to signal, etc. The point is, you will not get the theoretical max, especially if your client's NIC card is a 2 antenna, 2 radio adapter.


Quote:
Why can't I bond 2 channels with the 4500 but can bond 2 channels with the 3700?

My NIC is an Intel Wireless Wifi Link 4965. I believe it is a mini 2x3 card. It can bond 2 channels with my old WNDR3700v1 but inSSIDer says it is not bonding with the 4500. Do I need a 3x3 card to bond 2 channels with the 4500?
The Intel 4965 appears to be a 3 antenna, 2 radio wireless NIC adapter card. The third antenna may help improve throughput or stability of the received signal, or not with your 4500. Because it is a 2 radio, 2 spatial stream NIC, its theoretical max is 300 Mbps when using 2 channels (40 MHz bonded). It will never have a throughput approaching 450 Mbps. In fact, it may be less throughput with the 4500 than with the 3700 when using a bonded 40 MHz channel because of the method the 4500 uses when it is set up for 3 radio, 3 antenna use but there is only a 2 antenna, 2 radio client adapter to negotiate with. The webmaster of SmallNetBuilder found this out when he first tested the 4500 using a 2 antenna, 2 radio adapter initially.

But, back to your specific NIC card. Your Intel 4965 is designed to operate up to 150 Mbps in single channel mode no matter that you set the 4500 to operate up to Mode 217 Mbps (the single channel Mode of the 4500). Your card cannot take full advantage of the potential throughput (even under perfect conditions) of the 4500 in single channel Mode. When the 4500 is set to two channel bonded Mode of 450 Mbps, you card can do no more than its theoretical 300 Mbps because it is essentially a 2/2 NIC (with a third antenna but not a third radio), not a 3/3 NIC. Once again, your NIC will never reach the potential of the 4500 when all other variables are held same (location, notebook, channel selection, interference, etc). And, as I mentioned above, it is possible that the Intel 4965 may clash with how the 4500 operates and you will get even less throughput than with your 3700 or a proper 3/3 NIC adapter.

One thing the 4500 does provide is increased signal strength compared to the 3700 due to greater amplification of signal with the 4500. This may result in an increase in throughput/stability with your current NIC card.

BTW, I have no reason to think your 4500 doesn't bond channels. In fact, you presented data the 4500 IS channel bonding --> link rates between 160-300 Mbps on the 5 GHz band! A Link Rate greater than 150 Mbps is an indication of channel bonding for your 2 radio NIC card. You will not report a link rate greater than 300 Mbps with a 2 radio NIC (or router, for that matter) when using Wireless Network Connection Status in Windows. Your NIC adapter card is not capable.

Quote:
Should I upgrade my NIC to the Intel Ultimate 6300 (3x3)?
This may result in improved performance in the 2.4 GHz band and should improve perfomance, possibly significantly, in the 5 GHz band. The Intel 6300 is a superb NIC adapter card. I use the 5300 and gained performance over my old 2/2 NIC, particularly in the 5 GHz band.

Quote:
So the questions remain: Is inSSIDer reporting the wrong status of channel bonding and theoretical max because of a bug in the software, is the theoretical max @ 2.4GHz NOT 450Mbps, is there a problem with my NIC or the 4500?
Fuggedabout inSSIDer. Nothing you have said so far, that I can remember at this moment!, speaks to a malfunction of your NIC or the router.

As I already wrote in an earlier post, inSSIDer reports funkiness and it doesn't matter. I have tested data throughput over my LAN - the critical information you want about your LAN, and the reading from inSSIDer is inconsequential in this specific regard you ask about.

Again, the information you want requires you to connect/share two computers to your LAN, one hardwired directly to the router and the other test both hardwired and wirelessly, using iperf or LAN Speed Test or other software that determines data throughput over your LAN, and test at several locations inside/outside your home as desired. Then you can determine how well the router and NIC adapter card can function.
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  #15  
Old February 25th, 2012, 08:12 AM
z3540 z3540 is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Thanks StratmanX!!!

Just to make sure I got this right:
1. My NIC is essentially a 2x2 card even though it has a 3rd antenna.

2. WNDR3700: My NIC can bond 2 channels in both 2.4 and 5 GHz band maxing out at the theoretical 300Mbps advertised speed in both bands.

3. WNDR4500: My NIC can NOT bond 2 channels in 2.4 band hence it gives me a theoretical max speed of only 217Mbps. My NIC CAN bond 2 channels in 5GHz giving me a theoretical max of 450Mbps.

Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but if the above points are true, then inSSIDer is working properly since, in this circumstance, it reports points #2 and # 3 above. While I don't live and die by inSSIDer, if I see incorrect information being displayed, I investigate it. What I saw was bonding with both routers in the 5GHz band but not in the 2.4GHz band in the 4500. Your explanation of this put my OCD mind at ease by answering my doubts about this router.

With your 5300, are you bonding 2 channels in both 2.4 and 5 GHz bands? What environment do you use your 4500 (distance from router, floors, walls, etc.) and what speeds do you get in both 2.4 and 5 GHz modes as reported by Windows Wireless Network Connection Status? If there are significant gains, then I will upgrade my NIC when I have the funds. Why did you go for the 5300 instead of the 6300?

Went over to the SmallNetBuilder site and saw the review of the 4500. It doesn't seem fair that he changed his NIC to an Intel Advanced N 6200 that is only 2x2 and reported only average results. He did not test the 4500 to its true potential, IMHO.

I also saw your post about your 5300 NIC. Has your situation improved any?

Thanks again!!
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Old February 25th, 2012, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Quote:
Originally Posted by z3540 View Post
Just to make sure I got this right:
1. My NIC is essentially a 2x2 card even though it has a 3rd antenna.
Yes. Two spatial streams.

Quote:
2. WNDR3700: My NIC can bond 2 channels in both 2.4 and 5 GHz band maxing out at the theoretical 300Mbps advertised speed in both bands.
AFAIK yes.

Quote:
3. WNDR4500: My NIC can NOT bond 2 channels in 2.4 band hence it gives me a theoretical max speed of only 217Mbps. My NIC CAN bond 2 channels in 5GHz giving me a theoretical max of 450Mbps.
That is above my paygrade. It could be you can bond but the functioning of the router and/or NIC cause the router to respond in single channel mode. It could also be distance of the client from the router and/or interference from other signal and/or electrical devices that reflect the link rate on the client. How the 4500 responds and interacts with your NIC is not known to me.

If you can get bonded channel link rates (>150 Mbps) on the 5 GHz band then I would think you could a bonded channel link rate on the 2.4 GHz band.

You'll notice that there is a different Mode selection on the 4500 with its 3 spatial streams (54, 217, 450 Mbps) than on your 3700 with 2 spatial streams (?, 130, 300 Mbps). Precisely how your NIC and the 4500 handle negotiations of the signal is a good question I can't answer.

One way to find out is to test the wireless throughput (and noting the link rate during transfer as well at rest) with the client in the same room a couple/few feet from the router. You could also test as a control those parameters with the client hardwired to a LAN port on the back of the router. Note though, that the LAN port on your client may only be a 10/100 port and therefore max throughput at the theoretical 100 Mbps.

Quote:
Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but if the above points are true, then inSSIDer is working properly since, in this circumstance, it reports points #2 and # 3 above.
Unknown as pointed out in a previous post of mine the flaky reporting of Link Rate by inSSIDer that required a restart of the application to show the correct Link Rate after moving from a remote location to within 4 feet of the router.


Quote:
With your 5300, are you bonding 2 channels in both 2.4 and 5 GHz bands?
The router and NIC function in both single and bonded channel Mode. Performance, though, is better with single channel Mode for the 2.4 GHz band due (most likely) to neighbor's interfering wireless signals.

Quote:
What environment do you use your 4500 (distance from router, floors, walls, etc.) and what speeds do you get in both 2.4 and 5 GHz modes as reported by Windows Wireless Network Connection Status?
Whew! Too much to type again. Look over my previous posts here and at SmallNetBuilder. All is contained within. For starters, see my post here.

During throughput testing with my notebook 4 feet from the router, Wireless Network Connection Status in Windows displayed link rates of 170's & 190's for Mode = 217 Mbps on the 2.4 GHz band (yes, I only tested in single channel 20 MHz Mode), and 270 & 450 for Mode = 450 Mbps on the 5 GHz band. The throughput for that test was 49 & 57 Mbps on the 2.4 GHz band and 114 & 119 Mbps on the 5 GHz band.

Like what I said concerning inSSIDer, Wireless Network Connection Status in Windows is of less importance than determining actual throughputs. remember that the Link Rate shown by your client notebook is a function of the pre-programmed data meant to be shown by the router based on the Mode you select in the 4500. To this, the abilities of your NIC, as well as interfering neighbor wireless signals/electrical devices/distance from the router/barriers to signal/etc will affect the ultimate link rate, either when inactive or during active data transfer.

Quote:
If there are significant gains, then I will upgrade my NIC when I have the funds.
You won't know until your try. Buy from a source you can return from with little or no restocking fee. My Intel 5300 cost $20 and came from Asia, so I was prepared to eat the cost if things turned out sour.

Quote:
Why did you go for the 5300 instead of the 6300?
I needed a full mini card for my notebook as the antenna would not reach the terminals of the half height mini card of the 6300 or the extender frame you can buy.

Quote:
I also saw your post about your 5300 NIC. Has your situation improved any?
What situation?
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Old February 25th, 2012, 01:51 PM
z3540 z3540 is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

You were going to check your antenna on your notebook because you were not getting good performance in the 5GHz band compared to your 1st 4500.

BTW, I just ordered a 6300 from newegg (free shipping) for $40 and a half mini to full mini adapter bracket from ebay for $5. Like you, I am willing to eat <$20 should I need to return the card. I believe my antenna wires will reach. When I get the time, I'll run speed tests as you have suggested using iperf or LAN Speed Test: 3700 + 4965, 4500 + 4965, and 4500 + 6300 in both bands. I'll let you know how it goes.

Again, thanks for your expertise and knowledge!

Have a good weekend.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 05:51 PM
StratmanX StratmanX is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Quote:
Originally Posted by z3540 View Post
You were going to check your antenna on your notebook because you were not getting good performance in the 5GHz band compared to your 1st 4500.
That was due to a malfunctioning 5 GHz band on one of the three 4500's I tested. A different 4500 and all has been well. There was no issue with the NIC card or notebook.

Quote:
When I get the time, I'll run speed tests as you have suggested using iperf or LAN Speed Test: 3700 + 4965, 4500 + 4965, and 4500 + 6300 in both bands. I'll let you know how it goes.
Let me know if you need help using iperf. It's very simple but at first glance looks complicated.

Look forward to reading your results!
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  #19  
Old March 3rd, 2012, 08:14 AM
z3540 z3540 is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Well, I upgraded my wifi card to the Ultimate 6300. Using inSSIDer, I got the following results:

2.4GHz - 300Mbps - 1 channel bonding (a slight improvement from 216Mbps and bonding 1 channel)
5GHz -450Mbps - 2 channel bonding

After updating the firmware, I got the following results:

2.4GHz - 450Mbps - 2 channel bonding !!!!!
5GHz - 450Mbps - 2 channel bonding
Note that I had to go to the card's advanced property settings and change the "802.11n Channel Width for band 2.4" to "Auto" from "20MHz Only" (default value).

So it seems that that inSSIDer is properly reporting the correct status and I am finally taking "full" advantage of the 4500.

Using Windows Wireless Network Connection Status I get the following speeds:

Ultimate 6300
Old firmware:
2.4GHz: 80-144Mbps
5GHz: 144-270Mbps

New Firmware:
2.4GHz: 116-360Mbps (speeds change often - ie. great variabilility)
5GHz: 130-270Mbps (speeds more consistent (usually >200) - ie. less variability)

I have not done any "formal" speed tests yet.

Furthermore, the Signal Quality has improved, especially in the 5GHz band. I would get no more than 4 out of 5 bars. Now, I get mostly 5 out of 5 bars. Note that my laptop is 1 floor down, 2 walls, and 25-30 feet away from the router. YMMV.

Finally, the new router/wifi card combo has increased my web surfing in the 2.4GHz band. It went from 15-20Mbps (upload) to 30-50Mbps as tested by Speedtest.net. The increased signal in the 5GHz band has helped me keep a connection in that band with a speed of 40-60Mbps via Speedtest. I pay for a 50Mbps connection from Comcast.

StratmanX, I may take you up on picking your brain with iperf when I get the time to do "formal" testing...thanks!
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  #20  
Old March 3rd, 2012, 08:31 AM
z3540 z3540 is offline
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Default Re: Router not 450 + 450 Mbps

Sorry, I meant download not upload.
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